| Archive for Hotshot Connect Forum Connecting Transporters and Shippers |
| BR3026 |
I want to start a hotshot career, but frankly I'm cluelessI've read all the postes and I'm beginning to doubt my plan as I realize I am clueless. I have an F350, and plan to order either a 3 car wedge or 4 car stacker, but maybe I should be looking at a lowboy. I realize that if I go it alone, I'll need an authority, dot#, tax#, ect so I thought I'd work under someone elses authority, but maybe thats not right either. Heck, I don't even know what CDL I need! Can anyone point me down the right road? |
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| mhlogistics |
Most of the guys that work with us pull the lowboys. They can haul low profile cars and freight. freight is where the money is at, we only haul the cars when we have empty deck space. In my oppinion I wouldn't limit yourself to just cars. You need to be versital.
As for as what type of CDL? You'll need a class A CDL. As far as the autrhority. You should call Danny tomorrow at 760-868-6295. He has a guide that can make getting your authority easy and it'll save you a lot of money. |
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| bth9461 |
This is a very rough business and the reality is that many get in and then are forced out in 1-2 years with nothing to show for it. Usually all they have is a junk truck and a bunch of personal debt. Another Hot Shot guy on another site just posted his truck for sale. He bought the(Dodge) truck with 80k on it, now has 344k and he has replaced many parts along the way. He still owes 18k on a 04, because it is in good mechanical condition, he might get out of it. The point is he can't afford to keep it on day wages. The business is easy to get in, not so easy to get out clean if it does not work.
You need to be in a reasonable personal finance situation. If you are in hock up to your ears, and have no other sources of income it will be difficult. Only you no where you stand to start with. This is a BUSINESS venture, this is not truck driving. Determination can make a huge difference, but all the hard work in the world, can not overcome all the obstacles you must face. Plan well be for you invest, the choices you make in the begining can be critical. Some thoughts: Customer base? 1 where will you get them? 2 what is the potential income? 3 what equipment do you need to service their needs? Cash Flow? 1 do you have any cash reserves after starup? 5k-10k 2 other income? partime job,wife, pension,ect 3 takes some time to get paid. 3-5 weeks, some cars are COD, took me 6 weeks to establish a trickle. 4 the bills will still come in. Fuel, repairs ( I had a big one 3 months in 2400 bucks), CASH or CREDIT CARDS whats your plan? Equipment - do you have the right stuff? 1 The Ford is the worst truck, poor milage, and unreliable if a 6.0 or 6.4. 2 fuel milage is the main advantage of 1tons. Dodge or Chevy are the smart choices, plus they hold up better. 3 trailer must be designed for customer base in mind. 4 Think about that truck, you might be better off changing before you start. Customers? 1 cars are easy to find but hauling 2-3 at a time does not pay that well. 4 or more you need a bigger truck. 2 LTL or Hotshot freight pays much better for the trailer space than do cars. More work digging up customers though. 3 I haul mostly LTL's out and cars back, sometimes I combine a car with a good paying LTL. Can you succeed YES!! 1 many do not. Don't be one of them. 2 you need to know where you will get customer's before you start. 3 many jump in before they they are ready and are doomed from the start. 4 I made most of these mistakes, going into my 4 th year now and it has gotten better each year. I had some advatages (wife with a good job, some cash, and lots of credit to keep me going, I am still paying for it too. Things get better each year and this is a long term business commitment. I work long hours, it is a way of life not a job. I see great potential in this industry, but it breaks good men every day. A little bad luck at the wrong time can ruin any of us. Take nothing for granted. My business is getting stronger but it is still a work in progress. I have not arrived at where I want to be yet, I am only pointed in the right direction (I think, hope?). Take nothing for granted. I STARTED KNOWING NOTHING, I did not Know about websites like this. They would have changed everything on how I started. Possible Customer, I have hauled some broker loads out of a place in your area when I started. They make steel knock down buildings (garages/sheds). Aztec Steel 800-891-6733 200 bradley st McKees Rocks, Pa 15136. Their Buildings usually consist of 2-3 pallets and some buckets of screws. The pallets are 10' and 16' long (30" wide), the 16' are stackable I Think. Most of the ones I hauled were 3k to 6k in weight, they make larger ones also that weigh 6-12k also. I met a guy once that hauled a lot for them, I think he had a direct deal (no broker), I would try that first go direct. They ship many buildings a day. He had a straight truck and tag along trailer, I think he had 25k worth of steel on his rig. Must tarp these loads also. These loads usually go to farms or home owners all over the country. I hope this helps, Maybe some of the others will weigh in, you must make your own choices. This is what I have learned. What is your background? Brian |
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| BR3026 |
MHLogistics and Brian - big thanks for the replies! MHLogistics: I'll call Danny for sure, but I think I need to do alot more homework first. I also checked out your site as well. Certainly one of the reasons I began to doubt the wedge. Would you mind if I spoke with you a bit about your services and thoughts?
Brian - awesome reply, you certainly got my wheels turning (excuse the pun). Thanks for all the tips, including the Ford vs Dodge tip. Thing is, I've already got/had the Ford from before thinking about this deal. Tough decision, may have to wear her out first. I most appreciate the tip on Aztec Steel, they are almost right down the road and will give me a great starting point! As for my background: USMC for 12years, stumbled into the high-tech industry for a couple years, and now working in research and development for consumer products. Thing is, besides the Corps, I've always been happiest on the road dragging a trailer along. I've been involved in Racing for more years than I care to recall (goKarts, midgets, sprint cars, silver crown cars - before they got ugly, ice racers, rallycross - you name it) and have towed bigger and bigger stuff up to the 48ft enclosed behind an F700. I've also towed boats over 30ft. I guess I figured why make money for someone else, if I can do what I love and make money for me & my family. All that being said, it is a leap of faith to walk away from the 9 to 5 security!! Again, you have both been great and I'll be searching this site high and low for more info and more of your posts! |
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| TGPILOT |
It's a fairly simple and easy process to obtain your authority, if you do just a bit of research. You can do it all yourself and save a lot of money. A bit of time on the computer and a credit card and you can get most of it taken care of in an hour or so.
Go here to apply for your DOT/MC numbers: (first obtain commercial insurance within your state) Cost $5,000 to $10,000 depending on driving history and experience. DOT numbers will cost $300.00 online by cc. Your state DOT should also run $300.00. http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registra...ensing/registration-licensing.htm After that, you can go to your local state DOT and apply for your state DOT numbers. Obtain a BOC 3 or process agent. |
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| bth9461 |
Cars are great to get you home or fill out some extra space on the trailer. General freight pays better than cars. I think you want a trailer that can load vehicles easy, but LTL's and Hot shot freight is where the money is for the load size.
Last week I took a steel trench box from MI to Ma for $1550 on 840 miles, brought back 2 cars for $1015 on 1000 miles, you do the math. The LTL only weighed 2k and was 6 x 6 x 2 high and a 15 minute tarp job. There not all like that. But with 2 cars I hardly see more that 1-1.20 pm, with LTL's I can get 1.5 to 3.00 pm. I try not to go out for less than 1.75 pm on the trailer. DHing and return rates takes my All Mile Rate down to about 1.15 to 1.30 PM, The last 6 months I have been around 1.20 average. I run 26k and my trailer is only 31' long. With a longer and heavier trailer you can beat my numbers with the right contacts. Brian |
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| Tom Cobb |
If you want to get a feel for this business and just get out on the road and learn without having to get your own authority, etc. go do to IN and transport RV's for a few months. You won't make any money but will get your feet wet and you don't need a trailer to do it.
Search the internet for trailer transporters or RV transporters and you will find several. Look especially for Quality Driveaway. They seem to be the best one out there. There are several larger companies but be sure you understand what you are signing on for. Most everybody in this business has been down that road at some time or other. |
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| bth9461 |
Spoke to a Quality driver this past week in Toledo while fueling. He said they were paying 1.14 pm. He just hauled part time and said he gets a back haul once in a while. The one thing about this type of work is it can be done on the weekend.
Brian |
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| mhlogistics |
MHLogistics and Brian - big thanks for the replies! MHLogistics: I'll call Danny for sure, but I think I need to do alot more homework first. I also checked out your site as well. Certainly one of the reasons I began to doubt the wedge. Would you mind if I spoke with you a bit about your services and thoughts?
BR3026, You can call us anytime. Gary 760-868-4932 Danny 760-868-6295. |
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| TGPILOT |
Getting StartedThis is additional information that might help those contemplating the HotShot business. Do the research, and you can get your authority online yourself in a short time, saving a lot of money. It's not that hard.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- do not put the horse before the cart. If you are thinking about getting into this business. Make sure that you can pass a DOT physical and obtain insurance before you run out and start buying equipment or filing for your authority. Blood pressure, diabetes, hearing heart condition are some examples. On insurance, make sure you can afford it and that your insurable. Other wise, you have spent a lot of money for nothing. FMCSA TEST Who Must Comply with the Federal Safety Regulations? • (The following information will apply to all drivers who will be hauling loads for pay (commercial). That includes RV haulers, horse trailers, boats, LTL freight, autos, Hotshots all the way to the class 8 haulers). The Department of Transportation has laid it on the line. All new truckers will have a safety audit in the first year and a half they are in business. • What are the requirements of the New Entrant rule? All new entrant motor carriers must complete an application package consisting of a MCS-150, and a MCS-150A. This application may be completed online at http://safer.fmcsa.dot.gov, or by contacting our headquarters office at (800) 832-5660 and requesting an application mail. For-hire motor carriers must complete an OP-1, or OP-1(P), the BOC-3, and pay a $300.00 filing fee. Private, and exempt for-hire carriers will not be required to pay any fee. Once the application package is completed, the carrier will be granted new entrant registration (USDOT number). After being issued a new entrant registration, the carrier will be subject to an 18-month safety-monitoring period. During this safety-monitoring period, the carrier will receive a safety audit and have their roadside crash and inspection information closely evaluated. The carrier will be required to demonstrate it has the necessary systems in place to ensure basic safety management controls. Failure to demonstrate basic safety management controls may result in the carrier having their new entrant registration revoked. • Who is subject to this rule? Beginning January 1, 2003, all new motor carriers (private and for-hire) operating in interstate commerce must apply for registration (USDOT Number) as a "new entrant". • What happens after the 18-month new entrant registration? The carrier will be notified in writing that the "new entrant" designation will be removed from their registration at the end of the 18-month safety-monitoring period, if the carrier meets the following requirements: The new entrant has passed a safety audit, or has not been deemed "unfit" following a compliance review; and The new entrant does not have any outstanding civil penalties. Definitions • What Is A Process Agent? "A process agent is a representative upon whom court papers may be served in any proceeding brought against a motor carrier, broker, or freight forwarder. Every motor carrier (of property or passengers) shall make a designation for each State in which it is authorized to operate and for each State traversed during such operations. Brokers are required to list process agents in each state in which they have an office and in which they write contracts." FMCSA. THIS IS DONE WITH A BOC-3 FILING. • USDOT Number: definition • The USDOT number is the number that the FMCSA assigns to each motor carrier that starts interstate operations. Your USDOT number must be marked on all of your vehicles. • To apply for a USDOT number, please submit a Form MCS-150. • Operating Authority (MC/FF/MX Number): definition The operating authority (MC/FF/MX number) is assigned to interstate for-hire motor carriers and brokers that apply for operating authority. These numbers are also referred to as docket numbers. The FF number is assigned to freight forwarders; the MX number is assigned to carriers domiciled in Mexico; and the MC number is for all other carriers and brokers • ( Normally within 30 days of filing, you should receive your letter of authority from the DOT. Until you receive this letter, you are authorized to run INTRA-STATE ONLY! When you receive the letter, make a copy to carry with you). Minimum Insurance Limits For Vehicles with a Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) of 10,000 pounds or more: $750,000 (BI &PD) for General Commodities (non-hazardous) $1 Million (BI &PD) hazardous except class A & B explosives $5 Million (BI & PD) Class A & B explosives, Hazardous materials transported in specified capacities in tanks or hoppers and/or any quantity of hazardous materials as specified in 49 CFR 173.403 of the Federal Motor Carrier Regulations. For vehicles with a Gross Weight Rating (GVWR) of less than 10,000 pounds: $300,000 (BI & PD) for general commodities except any materials listed below. $5 Million (BI & PD) Any quantity of Class A or B explosives, for any quantity of Poison Gas (Poison A) or highway route controlled quantity of radioactive materials. Common Carriers: Must carry minimum liability as listed above plus $10,000 cargo insurance. Broker Authority: Brokers must maintain a surety bond or trust fund in the amount of $10,000. • Coverages • Primary Liability This is usually the most expensive portion of any trucking company’s insurance package. Protecting you from damage or injuries to other people as a result of truck accidents. This coverage is mandated by the State and Federal agencies, which require proof of insurance documents to be sent to them. Interstate truckers will need the MCS90, the BMC91x and the appropriate state form endorsements, which extend coverage to the regulatory agencies. Policy limits for trucks over 10,000 gross vehicle weight will generally have a required limit of $750,000. This limit is set by the FHWA on interstate travel and is usually matched by the various states. • Physical Damage This type of policy provides actual cash value protection to an insured’s equipment in the event of an accident. This coverage applies to cases of fire, theft and vandalism of the insured equipment. • Cargo Insurance The transporter of freight and commodities assumes responsibility for the cargo he is hauling. The amount of the responsibility should be clearly established and understood by both the shipper and the transporter before the shipment is moved. This is usually done by contract, bill of lading, disclosure, or by published tariffs. Motor Truck Cargo insurance protects the transporter for his responsibility in the event of damaged or lost freight. The policy purchased with a maximum load limit per vehicle. This insurance policy, without question, requires careful thought and evaluation prior to purchasing. In addition, you need to be constantly evaluating your loads to make sure the coverage meets your needs. • General Liability As the name implies, this coverage pertains to very broad coverage other than automobile. This coverage provides protection for injuries or property damage sustained while on your premises, using your products or services, or because of a breach of contract. Policy limits start at 100,000, with usual policy limits of $1,000,000 per occurrence and a policy aggregate of $2,000,000. Higher limits are available as needed • Non-Trucking Liability Insurance Non-Trucking Liability provides limited liability insurance for owner-operators who are permanently leased to an ICC regulated carrier. It provides limited liability protection when the owner-operator is not on dispatch or pulling a loaded trailer. When the owner-operator is under dispatch they are covered under the Primary Liability insurance policy of the company which they are leased to. • Occupation Accident Insurance This insurance coverage provides the owner-operator with medical benefits and disability coverage due to a work-related accident, injury, or death. It is not purchased in lieu of Workman’s Compensation, but when Workman’s Compensation is not available in the specific state or not required by law. The difference between interstate carriers and intrastate carriers Interstate carriers operate vehicles that are authorized to operate in multiple state jurisdictions, which includes U.S. and Mexican states and Canadian provinces. Intrastate carriers operate entirely within a singlestate jurisdiction. International fuel tax agreement (IFTA) IFTA is an agreement among all states (except Alaska and Hawaii) and Canadian provinces (except Northwestern Territories, Nunavut, and Yukon) to simplify the reporting of fuel used by motor carriers operating in more than one jurisdiction. Persons who operate qualified motor vehicles are subject to IFTA licensing. Qualified motor vehicle - a motor vehicle used, designed, or maintained for transportation of persons or property and: • Having two axles and a gross vehicle weight or registered gross vehicle weight exceeding 26,000 pounds or 11,797 kilograms; or • Having three or more axles regardless of weight; or • Is used in combination, when the weight of such combination exceeds 26,000 pounds or 11,797 kilograms gross vehicle or registered gross vehicle weight. Qualified motor vehicle does not include recreational vehicles. Recreational vehicle - vehicles such as motor homes, pickup trucks with attached campers, and buses when used exclusively for personal pleasure by an individual. In order to qualify as a recreational vehicle, the vehicle shall not be used in connection with any business endeavor. Upon application, the carrier’s base (home) jurisdiction will issue credentials that allow the IFTA licensee to travel in all IFTA member jurisdictions. Wisconsin is your base jurisdiction for IFTA licensing and reporting if you: • Have qualified motor vehicles based in Wisconsin for vehicle registration purposes • Maintain operational control and operational records for qualified motor vehicles in Wisconsin or can make records available to Wisconsin • Have one or more qualified motor vehicles that actually travel on Wisconsin highways; and • Operate in at least one other IFTA jurisdiction The IFTA license offers several benefits to the interstate/inter-jurisdictional motor carrier. These benefits include one license, one set of decals, one quarterly fuel tax report that reflects the net tax or refund due. These advantages result in cost and time savings for the carrier and the member jurisdictions. Every licensee is obligated to submit a return. Tax returns are required even if no operations were conducted or no taxable fuel was used during the reporting period. Returns that are not filed or not paid in full are considered late and will be assessed penalty and interest. When filing a tax return, a licensee may apply the fuel overpayment generated in one jurisdiction to the taxes owed for another jurisdiction. You must maintain your records for 16 quarters to prove the tax return information is accurate. Wisconsin has a fuel tax licensing reciprocity agreement with Iowa and Minnesota. This agreement replaces fuel tax licensing and reporting requirements for the following vehicles: 1. All qualified motor vehicles owned or leased and operated by a resident of either state that operate no further than 30 miles from the Wisconsin/Iowa (for Iowa registrants) or Wisconsin/Minnesota state border (for Minnesota registrants). 2. All qualified motor vehicles owned or leased and operated by the state or any political subdivision of the state, while operated in official capacity and displaying tax exempt, municipal or state owned registration plates. 3. All school buses owned and operated by a resident of either state while used in the transportation of pupils to and from school related and/or sponsored events. In lieu of IFTA licensing a 72-hour trip permit can be obtained. These can be purchased from a permitting service. D.O.T AUDIT GUIDELINES 1. Accident register, accident reports, copies of citations, etc. 2. List of all CURRENT DRIVERS including regular, part-time, etc. include first name, middle initial, last name with hire dates. Separate Interstate from Intrastate drivers & any terminated drivers within the past 365 days. 3. CURRENT EQUIPMENT LIST: year, make, company number, and license number. separate list for trucks, tractors, trailers & indicate whether owned or leased. Also include vehicles’ (gross vehicle weight) rating along with the license weight. 4. TOTAL MILES TRAVELED in past 365 day or fiscal year. 5. GROSS REVENUE for past 365 days or fiscal year. 6. MCS-90 INSURANCE ENDORSEMENT. 7. CONTROLLED SUBSTANCES/ALCOHOL TESTING PROGRAMS. All test results for drug/alcohol testing, annual & quarterly summaries, DOCUMENTATION of reasonable suspicion training for SUPERVISORS & COPY OF EDUCATIONAL MATERIALS FOR DRIVERS. 8. NAME & ADDRESS OF CONSORTIUM. If none, documents relating to the random selection process. 9. DRIVER QUALIFICATION FILES. 10. DUTY STATUS RECORDS & ALL SUPPORTING DOCUMENTS. 11. MAINTENANCE RECORDS & DRIVERS VEHICLE INSPECTION REPORTS. 12. Hazardous materials registration, cargo tank certificates, documentation for hazardous materials training. WHAT IS NEEDED: 1. ALL INFO on accidents also must have copy of ALL TICKETS DRIVERS’ received even if not in accident (speeding, log book, parking, etc) any & all tickets. 2. Same list you supply to drug testing for your quarterly pulls. ADD date hired & or quit work. 3. Same as you supply to get License Plates every year. 4. Use IFTA reports & spread sheets. 5. This should match what you file to the IRS on taxes. 6. Your Ins. Policy usually has this included & showing effective dates. 7. Give info on Consortium. & all paperwork they send you for your DRUG TESTING FILE. 8. Testing company you use, if any different use that. 9. Complete file on the driver(s). 10. Logs for the last 6 months, trip reports, fuel tickets, shipping orders or bill of ladings, trip envelopes, fuel tax records. 11. Get these from past year of (inspections, records kept from oil changes & lubes on equip. & all DOT inspections on the road) along with the back of the logs drivers’ fill out last 6 mos. 12. NONE if you don’t do HAZMAT. Hours of Service NEW HOS RULES Simply stated the new rule means: • Drivers may drive up to 11 hours in the 14-hour on-duty window after they come on duty following 10 or more consecutive hours off duty. • The 14-hour on-duty window may not be extended with off-duty time for meal and fuel stops, etc. • The prohibition on driving after being on duty 60 hours in 7 consecutive days, or 70 hours in 8 consecutive days, remains the same, but drivers can "restart" the 7/8 day period anytime a driver has 34 consecutive hours off duty. • CMV drivers using the sleeper berth provision must take at least 8 consecutive hours in the sleeper berth, plus 2 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth, off duty, or any combination of the two HOURS-OF-SERVICE RULES 2003 Rule Property-Carrying CMV Drivers Compliance Through 09/03/05 2005 Rule Property-Carrying CMV Drivers Compliance On & After 10/01/05 May drive a maximum of 11 hours after 10 consecutive hours off duty. NO CHANGE May not drive beyond the 14th hour after coming on duty, following 10 consecutive hours off duty. NO CHANGE May not drive after 60/70 hours on duty in 7/8 consecutive days. • A driver may restart a 7/8 consecutive day period after taking 34 or more consecutive hours off duty. NO CHANGE Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) drivers using a sleeper berth must take 10 hours off duty, but may split sleeper-berth time into two periods provided neither is less than 2 hours. CMV drivers using the sleeper berth provision must take at least 8 consecutive hours in the sleeper berth, plus 2 consecutive hours either in the sleeper berth, off duty, or any combination of the two. Tom |
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| Tom Cobb |
Good and informative post TG. All newbies need to digest it all and a good review for all operators. | ||
| tomsws6 |
I just checked out Quaility. Now in hauling for dummys terms you use all there insurance, need a cdl, and just basically hook up to there campers and haulem to were they need to go? Does anyone have an idea how long there hauls are? 1 2 or 3 days? thanks tom | ||
| Tom Cobb |
The link below gives their qualifications.
http://www.qualitydriveaway.com/php/recruiting/job.detail.php?id=5 Do you have all the hitches, DOT required safety equipment, tools, spare bulbs and fuses, etc.. You must have bobtail insurance to cover you when unloaded or besure you have a letter from your insurance company that you are covered for liability and collision, etc. when not under dispatch. That is what bobtail insurance is. The length of any trip depends on the destination. I would NEVER base my employment in the transport business on how long the trips are. You cannot make any money choosing to be gone from home only for 2 or 3 days. There are not that many of those trips. Every person I know in this business that did that was continually griping because they didn't make any money. DOT rules only allow you to drive 11 hrs in a 14 hr duty day. You have to maintain a log book and comply with all the DOT rules. The RV transport companies require you to log by the same rules on your deadhead trip home or back to the terminal for another load. Where do you live? What are trying to accomplish? Is this to be part time or are you really interested in this being a business? A business requires a lot more than 8 hrs a day and 5 days a week. Give us some more info about you, your equipment and goals and we can give you some specific answers to your situation. Spend some time reading the posts on this website to gain a lot of insight into this business. |
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| LBZ |
The RV thing may be a good thing for someone who is retired and using it to pay for fuel to see the country in which they would be traveling anyway. However using it for a income source of more than a nominal amount is the path to financial ruin.
I saw a post on another board about the rates being somewhere around $1.20 one way over this past winter and that was on $3 + fuel. I cannot imagine anyone taking an RV anywhere now on $4 fuel. As well sales of these are going to fall off dramatically as buyers are not going to pay the fuel rates either. |
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| Tom Cobb |
Some valuable lessons can be learned by starting out in the RV transport business if you can weather the few months it takes. Some people seem to do it and get by but not without other income sources. | ||
| tomsws6 |
Well I hvent bought any equipment yet. I was thinking of a gm 4500 series truck. Maybe a monroe p/u. I found a couple in the low 30's and high 20's avg. 50k miles. I thought about that to maybe get my feet wet and see. If i decide its not for me then I just have a big pick up. I would like to go full time but I dont think its smart to buy truck trailer and spend 10k getting setup quit my job and get out there and realize its just not for me. Does that make any sence or am I just a nutjob. | ||
| Tom Cobb |
I said this earlier. This business is not a part time job. You cannot in most cases pickup and deliver on weekends nor can you generate enough cash flow part time to pay for the expenses like insurance that are 7 days a week.
You have not identified what you want to do or a business plan. Therefore none of us have any way of giving you any advice about what you want to do. |
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| BR3026 |
I looked at Quality Drive Away's link and it seems the only valuable lesson you will learn is at .80 a mile you'll go broke before you can haul any real frieght. Maybe they can pay more to someone with a flat deck, they're paying semi trucks $1.30ish.
My business plan could be flawed, but my cost breakdown per mile is about .60 when I include maint., fuel, insurance, ect. If you tow 500 miles for them you'll make $100.00! You'd really need to hustle to keep the fridge at home bearly stocked. I just can't see how anyone running legally with good equipment could work for them and get by. It seems that if you hookup with a good broker that can build good loads and you can trust them you can learn the business and still be able to have a couple bucks in your pocket. As an update for what's going on with my startup - I think the FL60 is going to be the right truck for me. If for no other reason, to satisfy DOT requirements for the sleeper w/o modification and the cost difference between a used FL60 and a new pickup. My business plan is done and my legal business structure should be done by close of the month. CDL lic should be secured by close of April, and (I hope) the truck and trailer should be purchased shortly after. I plan to work secure a relationship with a broker I trust and move into the business from there. |
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| tomsws6 |
Well , Thats why Im here . To learn everything I can before I go and do something. Im trying to look at all aspects of this buisness and to get as much input and advise. All input is greatly appreciated. | ||
| Tom Cobb |
You guys are in the area where bth9461 (Brian Howard) is located. It would be tremendously beneficial for ya'll (yes I am a Texan thru and thru) to talk with him. Send him a PM or talk to him on here. If you ask he will likely give you his phone number so you can call him.
He is a good man to even if he is a yankee LOL!!!! If you want to talk to me let me know and I will give you my number in a PM. Brian has it and so does TG and it is OK for them to give it to you. |
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| mhlogistics |
Have you considered a smaller more economical rig? What we are seeing is these medium duty trucks are seeing 6 to 7 mpg at best. Take a look at the Dodge 4500 here's a picture of one we put a sleeper on. This truck gets 10 to 12 mpg loaded. With fuel price where they are right now you may want to rethink your equipment?. We have seen 5 guys with medium duty trucks park this winter because of high operating costs when guys with this style truck stayed busy making money. 
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| Tom Cobb |
4500 anything is classed as a medium duty truck. | ||
| BR3026 |
Hi guys,
I have been giving some serious thought to what truck is right for my business and have run through several scenarios. Let me run it by you: A new 1 ton crew prices somewhere in the $50k range (a little lower if you limit the options) while a used FL60 can be had for $30k to $40k with anywhere from 20k to 150k miles. If I figure in the cost of the hitch, the sleeper, and the aux fuel tank with the savings on the truck itself; my savings at startup is around $15k-$25K depending on the cost of the FL60. I had a 1987 F600 that I pulled a 48ft enclosed trailer for racing. It got around 10mpg loaded or unloaded - didn't matter (its still running strong at just under a million miles with it's 2nd engine). I'm currently running an International straight truck right now and I'm seeing 11mph regardless of load. It's 12 years old with 520k miles and literally nothing has failed. Now, I baby that truck - no hotrodding and I never carry more than about 8,000lbs. My theory is that: 1) I can lower my startup cost by $20K 2) The medium duty will have a longer service life 3) I can see 500K miles or more before the motor gets tired 4) A new cat at 500k miles costs just about the same as a new cummins at 300k miles. 5) My projected cost breakdown per mile for a pickup (est. 13mpg) is about .50 while the medium duty (est. 11 mpg) comes in at .60 6) And tires are pretty much a wash 7) Of course, registration and safety inspections are more money.  I have a wider choice of ins. carriers (while some won't cover a pickup with a goose, they will cover a medium duty with a 5th wheel). Odd but true.
Fuel difference @ $4 a gal. 7mpg = .57 per mile 11mpg= .36 per mile 13mpg= .30 per mile All of this being said, (except my experience with the straight truck and the F600 a few years back) this is still only a calculation not real-world data. It strikes me, however, that if I can lower my my startup cost substantially, extend the life of the truck itself and have more miles before the engine gives up the ghost I'm better off than a pickup guy for the "long haul" so to speak. In 5-6 years I would be driving the same truck with, potentially, the same motor; while the pickup guy may need to buy a new truck - certainly a new motor. At 6 years (if the FL60 has no major problems) my business plan shows $15ish more in my pocket over the one ton, primarily because of the service life of the truck and it's parts along with the initial savings - $65k more if I assume that I would need to buy a new pickup by the sixth year. I feel my calculations are correct - which leads me to the question; Why were the medium duty guys you speak of driven out of business? 1) How did they drive the truck? 2) Was their trailer right for the job? 3) Did they attack the job as they should (take as many loads as possible)? 4) Did they spend too much on the truck (I've seen FL60s selling well into the $100k plus range)? Certainly not questioning your info, just trying to get clearification so I can make the best choice! Bob |
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| LBZ |
Bob,
Why are you switching from I am guessing expediting over to the ltl flatbed segment? I would think established contacts in that area would pay as well as dealing with a flatbed? Just asking out of curiousity as I have no experience in expediting... Brad |
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| mhlogistics |
1) How did they drive the truck?
Great question, 4 of the 5 had previous commercial Driving experience so I think it's safe to say the 4 new what they were doing. 2) Was their trailer right for the job? Two of them had 40' trailers that were limiting but they still where earning a decent rate per mile. One had a 48' Stepdeck with ramps. One had a 53' stepdeck with pull outs and ramps. One had a 45' lowboy. 3) Did they attack the job as they should (take as many loads as possible)? Yes for the most part. 4) Did they spend too much on the truck (I've seen FL60s selling well into the $100k plus range)? None of them had the FL60's. Spending more for the truck may have played into it? I think the guys that purchased the GMC's were spending in the mid to upper $60,000 range. I know the 4500 Dodge is considered a medium duty truck. I was just showing him the picture because of the sleeper addition. We've even added sleepers to the 3500's. When I said medium duty trucks what i meant was the GMC 7500's, FL70's, T-300's and other comparable sized trucks. |
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| BR3026 |
Brad,
I have done expediting in the past - problem there is the load coming out usually pays darn good, but the expediting companys I've worked with (ones that don't require a new $100K+ truck about every 5 years) have limited ability/ desire to secure backloads. I'm currently running a line haul 5 days a week. Its good and bad for the same reasons - 1) same run every night = no surprises & it gets boring, 2) steady and predictable pay = limited chance to make more cash, 3) only running a 400 mile chunk of western PA = I've already seen western PA. I suppose the chance to haul a wide range of loads, additional money, and a chance to go anywhere is drawing me to LTL flatbed. The change of pace is more my speed. I'd like to stay out 2-3 weeks or more at a time and thats something I haven't been able to do in either line haul or expediting. MHLogistics, Well, real-world data is the only data that counts. A $20k to $30k difference in purchase price could change the profit and loss of a company (certainly if that's in the form of a monthly truck payment). I'm going to run through the numbers again to make sure - it just seems that the servicable life of a vehicle plays a big role, but it is also appearent that you need to be prepared for additional costs when running the medium duty. Maybe I'm missing something in the "big picture". Would you mind if I emailed you portions of my business plan for you to fact check? |
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| mhlogistics |
Sure I'll look it over for you.
You should have Brad (LBZ) look it over also. it couldn't hurt to get a few different opinion on it. 
If I see something you've over looked or figures I think that are inaccurate, I'll let you know. Just keep in mind it could take me a little awhile to go through it because I stay pretty busy building loads for the guys working with us. |
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| bth9461 |
BR, this is my take on this. I am not saying it can't be done another way, this is just my opinion. Its your money, so you decide.
You seem interested in seeing the country and plan to stay out for a while, so truck comfort, truck longevity, and profits are all important to you. I would go with a long trailer stepdeck style (48-53'), with air ride, and a design that allows easy vehicle loading. This will give you many different load options and make it easy to stay loaded. Now to maximize the trailer capacity you need a larger truck with Drive axle capacity. No pickup will work. Also I think truck comfort will be important to you so a stand up sleeper would be the way to go. The 4500/5500 (GM or Dodge) would give you the best mileage and if 4x4 is needed you can get them in 4x4. You would be limited on the sleeper with these trucks though. But 9-10 MPG seems to be the range for these trucks, Total gross weight would need to stay under 42k too. Medium size engines (8-9 liter), Cummings/Cat/ect.. in the FL/60-80 trucks are the next level. I know a guy that converted a Expediter truck. Took the box off and shortened the wheel base. Many used trucks to choose from with really nice sleepers 60"+. Mileage on the FL's seem to be between 6.5 to 9.0 depending on load. You could load up to 54k, but I would think you should be in the lower range on mileage if running heavy. Need a 300-330 hp motor. Single axle Class 8 with a 10-11 liter motor hp 370-430 hp, and a gear ratio of 330 (that is what the VOLVO rep suggested). Would give you the best mileage in a 54k, plus the longest engine life. I know a guy who bought a Ryder lease truck, FL with a Cummins and it was 10-11 ltr I can't remember, but it has a 390's gear ratio and 370 hp, he gets 8.4 mpg Ave pulling his stepdeck 54k or less. He got the truck with 500k on it and has run it trouble free for 5 years and 600k more miles. This truck must hardly break a sweat while working. The only thing he needed to do was replace the clutch (10 speed). I think he plans to run it another 5 years then retire. Sleeper is a mid roof I think 54" (48-60?), and he has it rigged up with a RV roof Air/heater and a little Honda generator. This guy seems pretty sharp to me. The truck cost him 15k 5 years ago. Both Ryder and Penske sell trucks like this, just google them and look for used truck sales. Most are 18k to 30k. The main thing if you want to run a medium duty or larger is that you must compensate for the loss in fuel with Hotel/Money, more freight, and better paying freight. I believe you can wipe out a 1tons advantages on fuel easy. Based on the loads that I see out there. If you build LTL loads with good cars. But that means more work than 1 pick/drop most of the time. I totally reject the Idea of a sleeping in a 3500, no matter how much you save. That is only a shorterm option, and not good for your health long term, or quality of life. With the larger trucks I would senp extra money on some form of APU system for engine life and personal comfort. Remember your truck is a tool and a home away from home, especially if you stay out 2-3 weeks at a time. Brian |
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| Tom Cobb |
I agree with Brian. I priced out a 60" sleeper for a 4500/4500 GM truck, for a standard cab and they can put a stand-up on it as well. It pushes $10K with air, etc.. So they will give you the sleeper you need if you can do with a 60". A new truck with sleeper prices out at about $65K.
The Dodge and Ford med. duties would be very awkward with a standup sleeper because of the low cab. They are really a glorified pickup. |
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| mhlogistics |
Regardless of what type of truck and trailer combination you choose to go with you could save a considerable amount of money by buying and adding the sleeper yourself. It's not that hard to install. But if you don't want to do the work yourself you should atleast buy the sleeper on your own and then pay to have it installed.
I purchased this sleeper for $100.00 on Ebay for one of the guys with a GMC 7500 . I know the price was a steal but I see them regularly on Ebay and craiglist for in the $300.00 to $500.00 range. Most companies that build sleepers or install them will want a lot more money for one. Not that I personally would recommend buying a truck of this size but this style sleeper would be a good match for a medium duty GMC or larger truck. You could either cut the back wall of your truck or close in the front of the sleeper to match the window. This sleeper has a full length door on each side. The right door is positioned to the front of the sleeper (walk in) and the left door is where the bunk is with access to storage under the bunk. 
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| TGPILOT |
Sorry I haven't been on here in awhile. Been busy else where with manythings going on and doctors visits. Hello TC and Brian.
I just got rid of my beloved FL-60 because of health reasons. The truck did me a fine job pulling, handeling the loads, sleeper, and safety. I just finished my taxes, and the one report that my program gives based on all cost ect. was a .78 cents cost per mile to operate. That was not too bad considering the rising fuel prices etc. Now, I pulled a 53' stepdeck that weighed about 10K with all equipt. onboard. So, yes, I was pulling heavier from the start. When I got rid of the truck, I had almost 300K on her. The only mechanical problem was a lift pump replacement in high-dollar California. My total cost for PM's maint. was just under two thousand. Other than that a fan belt and tires were my only real expense. The trailer was another story. But, after changing the actuator out to a different brand, I never had anymore problems with it. Talked to a guy the other day that bought a Ryder truck that has 287K on it, 15 speed spicer, 60 inch sleeper and a 335 Cummings for $15,000. As noted in the past, I used two Fords for hotshot work and RV pulling. I ran them until the warranty's were out, drove them a bit more and traded them in. I just liked having newer trucks. But, that got expensive. My last pickup was a Dodge that I still have, has 120K on it and looks brand new. One thing the bigger truck will do is give you that million mile motor. With the Fords, I had injector and transmission (out of one) problems. The experts reccomend that you find a good aerodynamic truck with the right gears, and setup the way you want. You don't worry about resale value, because the idea is to run it until the engine starts to give you problems and it's ready for an overhaul. Then, if the truck is still a good truck for you and everything else is okay. Rebuild the engine and keep running her. When you finally wear her out, give her away, or donate her to a truck driving school. This comes from the experts in the finiancial end of it, and many others. No matter what kind of truck you run, you will have expenses. The object is to always know your true cost per mile operation, budget X amount for each mile you run for maint. (or) replacement, insurance, and all other operating cost. Two many to get into right now. If you don't keep up with your CPM, your doomed to fail. Without knowing that, you don't know what it's costing you to haul a load, wether your making money, or going broke. Like Brian and TC said, research, research some more and decide first what type of customer you want to serve. Allowing too, for change as you grow and the market or customer base changes. The truck will be your main cost, but make sure that it will handle what you want to do and grow with you. The trailer should also allow you do as much as possible. There is good and bad about all trailers. On www.hotshothauling.com I posted an article about "No Perfect Trailer". Yet, you can do many things to design one that will do most of the things you want. Everyone WILL have a different opinion on this, but that's what a fourm is for. Each operator telling his experience, allowing you the reader to make up your own mind after comparing everything that has been offered up. REGARDLESS of what anyone of us has said here, it will ultimately be up to you based (hopefully) on your research and your intended customer base. Tom |
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| Tom Cobb |
It's good to have you back.
Very will said and very good advice. All we can do is offer it. It is up to those who read to make their own decisions. Have a Happy Easter and may the Lord of Heaven and Earth bless each one on this resurrection Sunday. Tom Cobb |
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| BR3026 |
I have to say, I think I agree with BTH, vehicle longivity, and driver comfort are very important. Can the industry be so tight that a 3-5 mpg difference can but a guy out of business? There has to be other factors than just fuel mileage that sinks someone. I think that if I stay out, stay loaded and drive smart I should be able to overcome the mileage difference and save on equipment replacement over the years.
Sorry this is so short and to the point - gotta hit the road. |
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| TGPILOT |
As always, there is a rig for every job. When I ran duallys, I always felt that I was pushing the envelope. Not only on the life and wear of them, but also the legal and safety aspects. And of course your health.
On my truck, depending on load, region of the country, and how hard I got on the throttle, I averaged from 5 mpg on the West coast with their mountains. In the central and Eastern part of the country I could get upwards of 9 mpg. My over all average was about 7-8 mpg. On the duallys, I was replacing tires about every 55 to 65,000 miles. On the medium duty I got over two hundred thousand miles and had expected 300,000 this year had I continued to run her. The Mitchelins ran about $440.00 a tire out the door depending on whereyou got them. Depending on what brand dually you were running you were suppose to change the oil and filters about every three to five thousand miles. Some guys run longer in between. Run longer on a Ford and see what kind of injector problems you have. (ask me how I know) On the medium duty (FL-60 with Cummings 300) factory recommended 18,000. But I always did mine about every 10,000 miles. My total maint. cost on the truck last year for PM's was $1,967.00. Ask Brian about motel bills.....With a DOT legal sleeper, I did not have to worry about being caught in a dually on the road and being put out of service. Also, later on in your business career as an O/O, you are still subject to a DOT audit. That means you are always under the gun. Why live that way?? Be as legal as you can, and you will be better off. Doctors tell us that when we rest, that we need to get the best we can. Lots of guys are having heart attacks, leg problems and other health issues associated with being on the road. Not to say that you can't still have the problems else where. Your just not helping matters. Again, I am living proof of this health issue. I've paid the price! So, it comes down to safety and fuel mileage. A lot of us using the Bigshot rigs have learned that, (as long as we don't overload them too) that we can carry a lot more LTL, and in some cases more weight which, in most cases equal out to more dollars earned per trip, safer. Again, you can discuss and argue all the pros and cons against all rigs. There is good and bad about every rig on the road. What it comes down to is what is best for you, your customer base that you plan to target. We have all said, that the best way to make money in this business, is to get rid of the brokers as soon as you can and get your own customer base. Shipper direct is the only way you really make it. Tom |
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| Tom Cobb |
Good post Tom and well said. I hope some of the new folks to the business and even those that have been in it and planning on making changes and staying in the business will read and heed what has been said here.
I don't need to add anything to what has been said except to say...stay legal. It is cheaper in the long run. Don't overload and over extend your rigs factory specs. It is not worth it. Those specs are set out because that is what the engineers were given to design the truck. The specs are set out and the engineers design to that spec. There is a reason not to exceed them that goes beyond warranty. I hear so many know it all's that think that there is room to exceed the specs and do have done it and think since they get away with it a few times that it won't catch up. In the end the truck is worn out way before it should be and the worse thing is......a failure or insuffcient braking ability kills someone. IT IS BETTER TO STAY WITHIN THE SPECS AND REGULATIONS...PERIOD. IT IS NOT WORTH IT TO VIOLATE THEM. |
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| bth9461 |
If you have the right customer mix and can keep most of your cargo at 12k or less then you can do very well. Gary likes the long Lowboy trailer with a Dodge Dually. By all accounts the Dodge gets great mileage. I averaged 12 mpg with a stock Duramax and a Deckover trailer. The Dodge guys say they get 13-14 MPG with the Lowboy trailer. That seems feesible as long as you stay under 28k gross.
If you run heavy with a dually say 30-34k your mileage is going to drop, and thats poking along at 55/60 mph. I get 8.5-10.2, plus it is tough driving, the truck is not designed for this like TC says. I think this must eventually lead to more wear on the truck. The dually Dodge/GM are incredibally tough trucks, but think what we are asking them to do, for 100-140k miles a year. The heavier trucks can do this much better. You just have to over come the mileage difference, If you only haul 12k of cargo then the dually will make more net profits, the gross is the same, but lower operating cost gives you money in the pocket. Now if your customer base only needs a dually then thats the money maker. But I believe the freight won't be equal, and this is where the bigger truck/trailer takes over. You haul the freight that the dually can and the freight that they can't. I have a load on my trailer now using my max weight and all 40', with TG's extra drive axle capacity and 13' more feet , I would not have had to turn down my best broker. He called while I was tarping, with a load needing 8' and 6k weight, could have gone on TG's upper deck. It was going near my second stop. It paid $900. My load that I am taking now is a better than an average dually load $2600 on 1100 miles, this other load would have added after pickup 100 miles, for $900. You can buy a lot of fuel with the extra $900. Freight potenial will never be equal between the two types of rigs, unless you have dedicated specialized freight, that is not my world, but others do have that type of customer. You would be very lucky to get that type of freight to start with. The Dually is a good way to break into the business, but if you can afford the larger rig, it will make you more money, right out of the gate. I have only run my new trailer for 5 weeks, each week TG's rig would have made $500-$1500 more easy, plus save me another $200 a week on hotels. If I could afford a new truck now I would buy it, Hope to have it in a few months, and then I will be putting my money, where my mouth is. I had chances early on to get a 4500 GM with a sleeper new for 40k, less than my dually, or a FL just like TG's for 38k with only 75k on it. I did not have a CDL then and was hesitant about going over 26k. I went from my starter truck 2500 Duramax to the 1 ton. Biggest mistake I ever made was not to get the CDL early and should have bought one of those trucks, and skipped the dually. We all make mistakes, that was mine. Hope this helps. Good luck, which ever way you go. You can make money either way. Brian |
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| Tom Cobb |
I have heard these outrageous Dodge mileage figures many times. I have my doubts. I have a friend who has a Dodge and he says they are full of it (BS). He got 8.5 to 11 mpg loaded and he was running up to 32K GCWR.
Others I have talked to are in the same range. You CANNOT get the correct mileage from the DIC on one load. The ONLY way is to hand calculate over several tanks of fuel. Full tanks topped off. The absolute worst fuel mileage king is Ford. GM and Dodge are very close loaded. A Dodge running empty will get better mileage than a lot of the GM dually but that depends on the driver. Driving habits affect all of the mileage figures. |
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| BigDaddyDiesel |
I khave to chime in on the mileage information, Ihave hauled loads that max the GCVW of both of my trucks, 3/4 and 1 ton and actually the 3/4 got better mileage loaded by about .04 mpg over all, but I attribute that to the manual tranny verses the automatic 5 spd in the 1 ton.
Overall, when behaving myself and driving like I cannot afford to waste fuel I average between 11-12mpg with either truck. NOW, that being said, if I accelerate hard, and let the trucks legs stretch out the mileage will obviously go down. In the one ton, there was one trip where I only averaged like 7-8mpg, but it was over night and I was in a hurry to get there so I could sleep. And still be able to run the next day. I don't do that often for obvious reasons. OH, and for those who do not know my trucks they are both D-max's one is an '02 dually and the other is an '03 3/4 ton, and both have been modified for more pwoer and torque. |
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| bth9461 |
Runninig stock under 26k I got 11-12 Mpg with my D-max. My IFTA average from Mar-Sept with the larger trailer was 10.3 28-32k gross most of the time.
Brian |
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| TLKLogistics |
regarding the dodge mileage...
Was the truck a pre-2007??? or post 2007??? The reason for this is the emissions crap that was put into the trucks starting mid-year 2007. The previous 5.9L Cummins could easily put up the 12-13+ numbers for you with the correct modifications. But the 6.7L Cummins is nothing but a turd when it comes to mileage. with the correct (mostly illegal) modifications, the 6.7L could get those numbers... but I wouldn't risk a stop in a picky scale house when the guy pulls out a mirror stick and you are put permanently OOS due to missing emissions equipment. The 6.7L sitting very close to gross will see somewhere in the 8-9 range if driven somewhat correctly. |
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| bth9461 |
That is a huge drop in MPG, that would really be a downer.
Brian |
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