Shift in Tranport Industry

Tom Cobb · Shift in Tranport Industry

Sometime back I have had some discussions with others in this business about how I believed that the "hotshot" or LTL business was a segment that would increase but would be something different than what we see now. I think that there will be an increase in the LTL freight business and subsequently the dually pickups will be replaced (as they should be for many safety reasons) with the medium duty trucks.

I have discussed this on other forums but I believe that they industry needs to STOP using "hotshot" and us LTL freight. I would say that less than 10% of the dually's on the road are engaged in true "hotshot" freight hauling.

I also think that the current trend in manufacturing of medium duty trucks is one thing that is a sign of this. The manufacturers see something that is driving a change in need or they would not be building the medium duty trucks. Some of the manufacturers never built them in the past.

Another thing is that the big transport companies are beginning to lease on and hire LTL haulers with the so called "hotshot" trucks.

Many of the new businesses being established in this country are small to medium companies. Much of their freight shipments are NOT full size truck loads. Consequently many big trucks are hauling partial loads or they have to wait around and find loads to fill it up. This has it's own set of problems, like waiting around to find a filler load, deadheading to fill the load, deadheading out of the freight lane increasing costs and time for delivery of the loads, etc.

With the medium duty trucks a sleeper can be installed making the drivers more comfortable and reducing hotel costs. Many O/O driving pickups are sleeping in the truck and we all know that DOT is cracking down on this, especially with the log book changes. In addition to the safety issues with overloaded pickups there is the wear and tear from being overloaded. Maintenance costs are not much different and fuel costs are close to the same as pickups carrying similiar loads.

With a medium duty O/O can carry the 35K loads or more, depending on the truck and do so safely and make more money in the process. I believe to survive in this segment of the business a change is going to have to occur.

My 2 cents worth of observation and cogitation.

bth9461

Saw a dually with a 3 car wedge trailer hauling 2 large pickups (6k each atleast) he had the trucks forward on the trailer. The dually was squatting pretty low. He had to be over his drive axle rating. A medium duty would have handled that load no problem. And with a load like that a dually is going to get less MPG with a high and heavy load. I bet he was getting less than 8mpg, maybe 6mpg? And wearing his truck out at a fast rate.

I think you need to save the dually's for under 26k light weight freight, that is where they excel. I average 12mpg each month with a stock truck, running 65 mph. Just my thoughts. In think the MEDIUM DUTY will replace the over 26K dually's eventually.

Brian

Tom Cobb

That is a good example of what I was talking about. I see that kind of situations often. UNSAFE.

mhlogistics

There's always been and always will be people in the industry that over load their equipment. We see them doing it with every size truck on the road.

There's people out there that say they make a decent profit running under 26,001 lbs. There's no doubt in my mind there operating cost is lower than those of us running at 36,000 lbs with a dually and a long gooseneck. I've thought about setting up a dodge dually with a bumber pull trailer rated at 9,999 lbs myself. I built loads for a older guy running this exact same set up. He was happy with what he was making and he was CDL and IFTA exempt. He was saying he was getting 15 to 16 mpg with his set up. Sure beats our set ups at 12 to 14 mpg and it smokes a medium duty truck getting 6 to 10. I know a guy that runs a sprinter van that says he gets 34 mpg. He loads the inside with small freight and tries to find a trailer to pull behind him on every load. I think before I'd go up in weight capacity, I'd be more inclined to go down in weight capacity. The key to success in this business is having the lowest operating costs possible no matter what kind of set up you run. Wink

Tom Cobb

I talked to a driver one time that used a bumper pull trailer that was near 30 ft. He used it because he could run with Progressive insurance nationwide. At that time with a bumper pull trailer you can run nationwide but with a gooseneck you were considered a longhaul trucker rather than hotshot. They would only insure for 300 miles radius. It saved him a lot of money in insurance and he was doing good.

I think Progressive recently changed their rules so you can run either trailer nationwide but at a higher premium.

bth9461

Here is the difficulty in running 26k. I wanted to head home to MI from Chicago this week. Normally it is no problem but none of the loads on the load boards would work. So I stayed another day. Sure enough a load pops up at 4:30 pm on one of the load boards. 12' 6500 pds no tarp, after I commit to the load a car shows up paying about the same, but I have to load the LTL over my trailer axles. Not enough room for the car either in the front or in the back on the dove tail, (31 trailer, 24' deck + 7' dove tail). Now I could have doubled my pay if I had loaded the LTL on the front and over loaded my drive axle by 1-2k and put the car on the back. I did not, I just grabbed the LTL and headed home. I bet by the time I was loaded their was another car or LTL availble, A medium duty with a long trailer could have Tripled the pay. Now a dually plated for 36k with a long trailer could have loaded a car first and put the rest on back, and the axles wieghts would have been fine. But there was a load still on the boards from the previous day that weighed 14k, TGpilot's rig (Medium duty, 30k trailer) could have taken both LTL's plus a car 23k of freight, that you can't do with a dually.

Flexibility in hauling different type's of loads can be important. What if the 6500 pd ltl needed to load first and come of last. TGpilot's rig could do that. Timing can be very important when it comes to load building, it can make a difference on the bottom line. A huge gross income can over come the extra expenses on a heavier rig. The 36k dually has more expenses than a 26k dually and has a much larger gross to go with it. A Medium duty is even higher.

Another major factor is safety, And this is what keeps me from crossing the 26k barrier with my dually. I have been on steep grades with 23-25k gross weight over the past 2.5 years, I would never feel safe at 32-34k with my truck on those same roads. I have never lost a steer tire but I have had an electrical connection failure on the trailer no brakes. What if this happens on a 10% grade in the winter on slippery roads. A bigger truck gives you a chance, a little truck gives you death or a near miss. I have not been at this as long as some guys, a guy with more experience can out drive me, I am sure. But what I have learned from others and my own experience is to ALWAYS EXPECT THE UNEXPECTED ON THE ROAD WITH A TRUCK. I personally will not cross that 26k barrier with a dually for safety reasons alone, even though it costs me money every trip.

The great thing about these trucking site's is that new guys like me can learn from others. Each one of us must decide what is best for our personal situation. Many different opinions are here. It is important that people can speak freely, because nobody knows everything. And even a new guy can run across something that a thirty year vet has not seen yet. Trucking for me is daily learning experience.

If I go up in weight it will be with a larger truck, for now I am trying to beat the bushes for good paying light weight freight and selling great customer service. Cutting expenses like Gary says is money in your pocket. Carrying all my food now saves me 20-30 dollars a day.

Brian

TGPILOT

Brian, you are right on. Too much can happen, no matter what your weight, but why push the limit, why risk getting yourself killed or worse, someone else?

Cost on vehicles and maint. go up the bigger the truck, but you can and should be prepared for those cost, no matter what size you run. However; you stress yourself and your truck less. Guess I will need to make a post on all that...lol. So far, my truck has over 256K on it, one set of tires in the past month...one lift pump...$2,500. So far, so good. We are DOT legal, and save a lot on motels. But to each his own. Make it work for you. whatever you do.

As I have stated on several boards, it's all about safety. Of course you can overload any rig, a person is a fool to do so. As you said, losing a trailer brake on a steep grade can make your day. I know a guy on another forum that lost his about a year ago on hwy. 50. Nearly cost him his life, but you don't see any comments regarding it, because it was in a dully.

As we read the different post on the various boards though, we are seeing that guys are having serious problems and nearly lost it. One guy did in Colorado last year in Colorado over loaded in a pickup.

I am not try to be anyones moral judge, just trying to keep guys alive. Several times in the last year I lost my trailer brakes, had it not been for my class 7 controlling the weight, I would have been history. The truck was able to handle the weight and stop it with the truck brakes alone.

We must all remember that we have one small wire that controls the trailer brakes. Should something happen along that pipe line, you've probably bought the farm.

You are correct in the deck space, I am now running for several companies that pay from $2.75 a mile on up. In order to make more money you have to advoid the load boards etc. They all eat into your profit. The bottom line is the most important thing you must watch.

Shipper direct is the only way to go, lock in your own customers, only use load boards and load finders when needed. Your profit and your bottom line will be better.

An example: I just hauled a small machine that weighed between 9 and 12 thousand lbs, was about ten feet or so in length just over the border in Canada for $5,000.00. I also added some other stuff to it to make a very good load and still had deck space left. Time I did not have....oh well.

Had I got that off a load board, I would have been lucky if the price had been between $1,500.00 to $2,500.00. Whatever that profit would have been, you wold have to also deduct a load finders fee if you used one. That's another ten to twenty percent off the top. In essence, no matter how you look at it, it's double brokering to an extent. So, you can see, you have a lower profit and shipper direct is the answer.

Because I have such a large deck, I am able to load it it with what I need, make the money I want. Most of my loads run 9 to 15 thousand lbs. with a few that are heavier. When I can, I stay in the 10-12 thousand range.

On my return trip I filled up in Cheyenne, WY and again in Okla. City. I went 833 miles and it took 87.1 to fill up. If I am correct, I come out with 9.6 mpg. I get that ever now and then. Most of the time I get an average of 7-8, with more 8 mpg. The secret is your speed and your stopping. I run about 58-59 mph. Those that don't get good fuel mileage, are the ones that are not watching the bottom line.

I started out in the early sixties, guess that's a little longer than most on the big trucks. Ran a lot of reefers coast to coast for years. Then ran a set of doubles up and down the I-5 corridor hauling flatbed freight.

Anything that I post, I can verify. I have old drivers cards from several of the outfits that I used to drive for, I save everything...lol. Because I am looking at a class 8 truck again, I have been doing a lot of research this past year. I listen to the experts and I ask questions. Some of it has confirmed what I all ready knew. The right class 8's can average 8 mpg.

The only reason I want to move from a class 7 to the eight is so that my wife will be more comfortable, plus, it won't hurt to be a little more flexible. However, the class 7 is working great for me as is.

Speaking of the experts, in listening to them the other day, they forcast freight to remain bad, especially for the flat beds and the dry vans. They don't expect to see it recover before June of 08. So, tighten your belt.

I've been real lucky, I really don't have any slow time. Usually have to beg for time off. Got in last night and told them I was off until Monday or Tuesday. I was suppose to have gone to LA and MS. Not in this WX I'm not....lol.

One thing that we, as members of this board or any other board must remember. That our names, our company etc. is available on that board. That means that any potential customer, DOT, law enforcement etc. can also see our post. We must remember to treat these forum’s as though they were a reflection of our own business website.

On one of the boards, we lost a potential customer because of offensive comments and pictures. Just think, one of us might have been contacted by that customer to move their product. Also, it can prevent the owner of that website from obtaining advertising. That is such a touchy subject now days with all that is going on in the world. Also, certain things can subject the web holder to a lawsuit. (I’ve been build website’s for ten years, to learn what you can and can not do on one is an eye opener).

For a member to go on any board and brag about how they violate the DOT regulations such as sleeping in their pickup’s, their sleeper less sleepers etc., run overloaded, or exceed the speed. These people do not represent those of us that are running legal. They may have their authority etc., but they are not running compliant. These are the ones that make the rest of us look bad, and because of that we are not able to get loads because of who we represent.

The idea of most forums is to promote discussion of safety, running legal, how to improve one’s business etc. without censorship. (Most of of us on these boards have fought for our country and our rights, such as freedom of speech). Those, that allow the “Outlaw mentality” hurt’s those of us trying to do it right. Months ago, I had contacted DOT to see if they would come on our various forums, and open a discussion section between them and the drivers. So, I know they are looking at us......what do we as O/O want to reflect here? Just a thought......

Be safe brother, live to drive another day, enjoy each day as if it were your last.

Tom

Tom Cobb

You all have good points and everyone has to apply what they learn to their situation and make a decision.

I will say this however, anyone who overloads his equipment and not consider safety above all eles is a fool, by any definition you want to use.

All of us that run pickups are running overload at 26K according to manufacturers specs. I can live with a properly loaded and equiped rig at that but when you go over that it is getting into the category of insane. No pickups can safely handle that.

The Class 4 and 5's are not rated GCWR for what some of the duallys are loaded with. The med. duty is darn sure equipped for more than the pickups.

Great post Tom. I fully agree.

mhlogistics

I edited this post because some of the stuff I said should have been kept between TGPILOT and myself.

As for the brake issue on 50 in Colorado, the cause was inproperly installed brake pads by a trailer repair shop. The so called mechanic put the pads on metal side to rotar. I actaully helped the driver rebuild his brakes in my yard and we both were shocked at what the mechanic had done. TGPILOT already new that but he sure isn't about to say it in here. He'd rather have everyone believe there going to get killed if they operate a 1 ton truck.

TGPILOT you don't know what your talking about! Load finding isn't double brokering, it's the same as hiring a dispatcher. Would you expect a dispatcher to work for nothing? I can remember saving your butt on a load not to long ago. have you forgotten about the partial load you built for yourself going from TX to WA with a Nogales, AZ drop on it? i sure bailed you out on that one didn't I?

Your only attacking Load Finders & Brokers because I banned you from my forum. FYI, I wasn't the only one that didn't agree with your big truck propaganda. Other memebers emailed me regularly after each one of your posts begging me to kick you off. I calmed them down and told them to ignore your posts as long as I could. One would think if there in a hotshot forum they might not want to run hotshots down?

TGPILOT

I have documentation to back up what I say. I will leave it at that, and not disrupt this forum or any other with a response to any accusations. I am the one laughing all the way to the bank. Do your research into the industry, be informed.

Tom Cobb

I thought that we could all get beyond this kind of stuff. I hope that I am right.

The attack on TGPilot is uncalled for. He offers a lot of insight and I for one appreciate what he has to say. I don't always agree with him on all points but I listened and respect him for his point of view.

Thanks TG.

mhlogistics

Well Mr Cobb it may appear like it was a unprovoked attack but thats simply not the case. For TGPILOT to mouth off and say Load Finding is the same as double brokering was attack on my business and my character.

The Hotshot Owner Operator that work with us do there own billing, we never touch there money. They willingly pay us a percentage for the work we do and we earn every penny of it.

If it was illegal to operate at above 26,000 gvw with a 1 ton dually we wouldn't be on the road doing it. In my opinion this is hog wash intended to scare new comer away from the industry. We roll through every scale house in the country except the states that don't want us coming in. If what we are doing is illegal we would be shut down at the first scale house we crossed. It's not the truck thats carrying all the weight!

The only person I'm going to apologize to is Rose. Rose if you want to remove my post thats your right and I'll respect your decision.

D. Green

There *is* room in this industry for all sizes, types, and colors of rigs. Smile

Heck, I know, I've tried 'em all over the years. There is such a variety of loads, that if a person wants to target a segment, it will become easier to find that size load, as your experience grows. I've explained before, in my experience, I could always find a reason for a larger truck, for a larger load, more versitality. But, for me, I've found I can find enough lighter freight to keep my wife in spending money. I may not run daily, but the *net* $ works out the same at the end of the year.

I still run my trucks less than 26k. The most profitable set up at present is a 48' flat G/N, 14k, on a Dodge (tractor setup) We move a lot of longer loads at weights less than 10k, but are able to get full trailer prices.

Dually 1t's have been moving loads to 20k# around here for decades. Under present law, I see no change for the forseeable future. If there were a large number of accidents, you can bet the states would be moving to change it. Much of it is driver experience, not only driving, but maintenance, area, and which types of equipment work for you.

Personally, I dislike mountains. I was raised on flat ground Laughing

and can locate enough freight along the gulf coast states, so I recognize my shortcomings in mountain experience... stay where I am comfortable.

If you are making money, there is no *wrong* truck. Very Happy

bth9461

TGpilot has been a valuble member on several forums. He seems to have found a set up and a way of doing business that works for him. He has brought his experiences to a public forum in an attempt to help us all. I don't remember him ever charging for his opinions or advice. In fact if we all took his advice he would be creating competition for himself. I believe he has only been trying to help his fellow truckers. He honestly believes that the heavy 26k+ 1 tons are unsafe. He has been a proponet of safety first over the bottom line. He has been absolutely consistant in that over the past couple of years that I have read his posts. Maybe it is the pilot in him.

We are all free to take his advice partially, fully, or not at all. Some people seem to have very thin skins on these issues, that is not TGpilot's fault, that is on them. It doesn't matter who screwed up a repair, when something breaks and your driving the rig, YOU have to deal with it and get that rig safely to the side of the road. Some ones family could be wiped out if you can't.

Driving in the Western/Eastern/South Central mountains is very different than driving in the Flat Lands. Is it legal to operate a 36k 1ton, you bet it is. But if they raised the speed limit to 100 mph for trucks, would it be safe? Each of us as a small business man must make many choices on how we operate. No two of us faces the same set of circumstances, we all have free choice to find the best path. But the consequences of our choices go with the decision maker.

So you don't like the message, how does killing (Banning) the messenger help. Just make a better case if you can. With your facts, don't resort to character attacks. Let the readers decide for themselves, what is best for themselves.

Brian

mhlogistics

No one ever said TGPILOT wasn't offering some good information about safety. What irritates some of us is that he constantly tries to talk guys into bigger trucks by preaching how much better they are. Some of know the negative side of operating bigger trucks. Personally I've owned and operated semi's for the best part of 23 years. I have many Friends that have went belly up because of the cost associated with operating them.

We load hotshot trucks daily, we load them as lite as possible to ensure safe operation and the well being of the Independent Owner Operators that choose to work with us. The fact of the matter is each state has set weight charts that allow us to choose a pre set weight rating when we register our trucks. these charts don't allow you to register at the exact weight you may want to run. Just because a truck is registered at 36,000 gvw doesn't mean it's actually grossed out at 36,000 gvw going down the road. My own personally truck is registered at 30,000 gvw. I choose to take less weight so I can increase my fuel mileage. Most of the time when we load a truck they have 10 to 12 thousand lbs of freight weight on. Unlike some hotshot companies saying you must load 18,000 to 20,000 lbs on your trailer to work with them, we won't load over 15,000 lbs on them. The Independent Owner Operators that work with us are their own boss and even though we try to load them lite it's ultimately their choice how much freight they put on. If you asked the Owner Operators that work with us they'll tell you I try to discourage them from taking the heavier partials all the time. Safety is our number one concern.

Another thing that grips some of us is this is a hotshot forum, just like hotshot hauling and the forum I've built. It doesn't say big truck forum or semi forum and I highly doubt thats what the owners of these forums intended for them to become when they built them.

You make some valid points.

Perhaps I was a little harsh on TGPILOT? However I stand behind what I said. On here and in hotshothauling TG has promoted my business because he knows we try to help people. I blocked him from my forum for a few reasons. The first reason was I'm the owner of the forum, I run a business that works with "hotshot" Owner Operators and I pay money to advertise that. The second reason was he was making other hotshot Owner Operators that work with us angry. Ultimately it was my decision and I felt it was for the best. Memebers of my forum were emailing me often wanting to jump all over him. I didn't remove his posts they still remain on my forum.

After blocking TGPILOT we started to notice him posting negative comments about working with brokers and load finders on other forums. As you can read above he started to attack load finders by claiming they are double brokering freight which isn't what we do. Hotshot Owner Operators hire us to build them profitable loads and book them on there behalf. We don't do there billing or collect their money!

Tom Cobb

These posts bring out one of the reasons I have been an advocate of getting rid of the term "hotshot". There are not 1/2 doz on any of the forums mentioned that are true "hotshot" operators. Dennis Green and Melvin Brooks come closer than anyone. The new term for "hotshot" is expedited freight and they have a forum that is part of a trucking site which also includes "hotshot" operators.

The correct term to use is LTL freight transporters or haulers or whatever. I have never heard "hotshot" operators being defined as a certain wt classification. If it was the correct classification based on the history of the "hotshot" business would be under 26K.

With the known history of the "hotshot" business all of you operators that are registered over 26K need to be on a big truck website.

Can't you see the foolishness of this pathetic argument about TGpilot not being a "hotshot" operator. Personally I would like to see more truckers of all kinds on all these forums. If you look close at hotshothauling and on here you will find truckers of all sizes on here.

Maybe Gary should confine himself to the real "hotshot" website if thats what he thinks he is.

mhlogistics

Tom Cobb

Don't you just love the power of being the owner?? It's really none of your business if I was banned or not. I didn't say one word about banning you.

Here is what I said.

"Maybe Gary should confine himself to the real "hotshot" website if thats what he thinks he is."

Banning is not there.

I said early on in this thread that I had hoped this junk wouldn't happen here but unfortunately some people just have to take out their hostilities on others and cause grief for the masses. What a shame!!!

mhlogistics

Sure seemed like you were giving me a hint to get lost? We'll just stop the non sense right here and you can go your way and I'll go my way. Good luck with your endeavors.

admin · I Believe

There is a place for all in this Industry.
We all believe in what we do or we wouldnt be doing it.
I have owned BIG Trucks & Hotshot. I have found my own loads & have been thankful to load finders and brokers for getting me loads. I have hauled everything u can think of.
From Brachs Candy to Tomahawk Missles. A 2# load to a 110,000# load.

I have slept in the seat of a duelly. (not good), the sleeper of a Large Car, to the RITZ CARLTON.
I have took good advice and some really bad.
I have made money, and God knows I have lost money.
We all can benifit if we can be tolerant of one another.

SPELL CHECK.

TGPILOT

You are so right, and I couldn't agree more. Thanks for your input.

Tom

Tom Cobb

Absolutely correct. I hope we can get this forum back to it's former glory. May God bless this forum and those that are here.

Tom Cobb

bth9461 · Re: I Believe

TGPILOT

Again, I agree completely. Although most of the boards do have a section for medium duty, class 8's and the dulley, expideter etc. lets put our post in the proper place. That way each thread will pertain only to those needing or requesting information.

Boy, I remember hauling Brach candy, Mars, glass. Go West with that and produce East.....ah the good ol days. LOL.

Tom

admin · Forum Index

Should we put a section for medium duty, class 8's and the dulley, expideter in the forum index?

TGPILOT

Yes, I think so. Thought we already had it. There are many people who either already drive one or the other or are showing interest in them. It would be a place to gain/share information.

Thanks.

Tom

bth9461

I am seeing more and more Medium Duties out there every day. Class 4 to 7 of every Mfg. Pulling many different types of trailers, and even some towing RV's personal and pro-haulers. Any of you seeing this also.

Brian

Tom Cobb

Yes I am. I have been seeing for a while now. Amazing what you can see when you open you eyes and observe. You begin to see trends in things and it will tell you a lot if you think about it as part of a bigger picture.

Tom Cobb

TGPILOT

Yes, i've been seeing more of them each day for the past year. Hardley a day goes by that I don't see at least a dozen or so FL-60 or 70's and MU-2's. Also alot of other brands out there.

I get a lot of drivers coming up to me, asking about my rig, because I can do just about anything they can, except the total weight. A lot of times I get full trailer loads that even the 48' guys can't haul because I have 53'.

I would like to run a shorter trailer, but this thing makes me money that I would not have made, if it was shorter.

Tom

Tom Cobb

Your rig does what you need it to so why mess with something that won't do the job? You are doing better than most of the others. To me some others are moving toward the type of rig you are running. Must be something right about it.

Classic Transporter · not taking sides BUT

Having run everything from class 8 tractors pulling reefers to 2500 Dodge trucks with wedge trailers over the past 25 years, we have settled on Kodiak crewcabs with 51 ft wedge trailers (no flipouts). This setup averages 9.3 mpg, whic is only about 1 to 1.5 less than we were averaging with the lighter trucks.We make up most of this in lower maintenance costs on other components (new spicer clutch for the Kodiak was 323.00 vs 890.00 for the last one we put in a F-350) and we are able to haul the loads OUR customers have available. If everyone hauled the same freight, liked the same equipment, and had the same goals, there would only be one manufacturer of any given item....

Tom Cobb

Well said. That is what makes America what it is.

bth9461 · Re: not taking sides BUT

Shift in Tranport Industry

I Believe

Re: I Believe

Forum Index

not taking sides BUT

Re: not taking sides BUT