TOM Cobb looking for ya!

TGPILOT · TOM Cobb looking for ya!

Tell me if it's true, are you somewhere in NM fishing with the Sonrita again. And you didn't even call me or Stroker. Got a lot of news to catch you up on when you retrun to the land of the living.

Might get you a laugh or two out of.....I did. Well when you get signal phone home.

Tom

Tom Cobb

I am back. I been fishing in OK at Beavers Bend State Park. My youngest son and I went. We left Wed AM and came back today (Sat). We caught our 2 days limit minus 1. 23 Rainbow trout. I got my limit within 45 minutes yesterday once I figured out what they wanted. It was a short day fishing. Only about 2.5 hrs. We enjoyed it very much.

I didn't tell anyone because I thought you guys wouldn't miss me for only four days. LOL

I got fired from Bell Helicopter on the 4th Feb. I told them I would not travel by air anymore so they decided that they needed someone else. I am trying to get on in another dept that doesn't require travel but haven't heard from them yet.

It is good to hear from you. What have you been up to?

Brian, it was good to talk to you yesterday.

Later folks.

bth9461

TC glad to hear you caght some fish on this trip, sounds like you had a good time. It is a mess up here in MI. We have been getting freezing rain and now rain. With all our snow on the ground it is going to be a huge mess when it starts to freeze again. LOTS OF ICE ON THE TREES.

Working on my taxes and planning to go get the trailer on Mon/Tue if the express ways get cleaned off. I hate this time of the year late Feb/ early March, cold and lots of Freezing Rain.

TG, looking forward to seeing how you structure the new load finding service. I could see needing some backhaul help.

Brian

Tom Cobb

TG

What's this that Brian is talking about? Are you starting a load finding business?

Brian

My joints, especially knees and feet are giving me fits lately. I think it is the cold weather and the rainy weather I think contributes to it. The cold weather in MI would probably do me in. I used to love cold weather but not the past couple of years. Someone said that "it takes courage to get old". I am beginning to agree with that. LOL

TGPILOT

Yes TC! I've had so many request from the guys to start a load finding biz. I really think they just don't want to see me retire. I thought about you out there fishing..........

You know TC, the least you could have done was send Stroker, Brian and me some cleaned trout ready to cook. Haven't had any since I moved out of MT and ID. They have great fishing in those states. Even Northern NM has good fishing.

Glad your back, try and behave now, your having way too much fun.

Will do Brian, I just got my office cleaned out, now I am in the process of restructuring it so that it will be more like a command center. Let me know how that new trailer works out, hopefully you got it setup to haul anything you can get on the deck.

You guys take care.

Tom

Tom Cobb

The shipping charges would have cost more than a fishing trip. We might as all just go fishing. LOL

OK has some good trout fishing also. There are several rivers that have been stocked with trout. They even have some trophy fishing waters. AR is also good so I am told. They have had some world record brown trout catches from the White River.

I thought retirement was suppose to be fun?? I went back to work twice now and it hasn't worked out for me. Maybe I just need to stay retired. LOL

Let me know if you need some help load finding. Maybe we can work out something to keep me busy.

Did you move back to the San Antonio area?

bth9461

TG, I hope I do have it set up well, time will tell. Its a 40' GN 25k with 2-12k axles, single 17.5" tires rated 6k each, wench, 102 wide wood deck, and a 11' hydraulic dove tail. I can hook my 8' alum ramps to it also to give me 19' of ramps to climb the 37" deck height or lower the tail to the groung for Heavy equipment. No more dragging my rump around anymore. I will have 40' of flat deck when needed or I can load a Mazzeratti or a bulldozer.

Plan to have Imperial chop the GN off and add a 11' stepdeck when I move up in truck size. Might add the Ridwell Air ride at that time too.

I would like a S/A with a nice sleeper, Auto tran, 11 liter about 400 Hp, with 3.30 gearing, and Aero- body style. Think i might have to order new to find it though. That means used Medium duty (stepping stone) first, and all the Business debt retired. I hope to change trucks at the end of the year (Used for sure, if things go well this year).

Brian

TGPILOT

TC, I know the white river, used to live a few miles from it. It's also known for it's catfish. AR also has some good lakes with trout two. Like you, I had retired a few times, could never stay down though.

I was very lucky to have a good retirement and medical plan. All in all, I don't have to work, it just keeps me going having something to do. I like keeping busy, so, after all the request I guess I will not retire soon.

Since it seems like more of the O/O are in this area and somewhat East and West of us, I think things will work out good.

Brian, seems like you paid attention to detail and got it set up right. I found that having as much deck space really helped in keeping loaded more than a shorter deck. But, then again it all depends on the type customers you want to target......always keeping in mind that you need to allow for growth and some changes in your customers throughout the year.

I've hauled about everything out there from military trailers, hay, ac's, oil field equipment and supplies to bulldozers, tractors, and autos. The old motto of always being prepared pays off in the end.

You have plenty of time to decide on the truck you want, you may change your mind several times in that period before you buy. As you know, I've always preached safety and being legal. Thus, keep in mind a truck that will last and allow you to grow as your business expands.....also, a nice little sleeper would be nice. For guys running some what local or regional, they can probably get by without one. But, over the road it will make a big difference. As you may have noticed on H/S DOT is starting to pay more attention to the LTL haulers.

I was real lucky with my FL-60. Only hit maybe 25 scales coast to coast with it in about two years that I ran it. I did get a level one just crossing through the bug station in CA, one at a scale in FL and one in Canada. The rest just looked at me and waved me through. Almost forgot, TX checked my tire size on truck and trailer, nothing big.

Well, better get off of here, you and TC take it easy.

Tom

bth9461

The Truck thing is a harder choice than trailers. I can see many different directions on that. Trailers are easier to change, or you can have more than one for different applications. The cost of trucks and the Insurance that goes with them makes it harder to switch or a stable. You don't want too much or too little truck, hard to get it just right. I wish they would up the IFTA/CDL to 30-32k and not allow duallies/trailers rated any higher. With a well designed trailer that would give us plenty of options and get the 36k-42k off the road or into a medium duty. I think the standards are out dated when you consider how much the light duty trucks have improved over the years.

This would allow a guy to get a crew cab with a CA 84" Cab & Chassis put small light wieght sleeper on it and have a very safe and versatile truck. He could drive all week and go home and grab the boat and camp and fish all weekend. He would probally like that weekend stuff so much that he would take an extra day on his restart.

I doudt they will ever change the rules though, so you have to fit the truck to the task the best you can.

Used medium duty is most likely the next truck for me with a sleeper. I know a guy that got a smoking deal on a expeditor truck and took the box off and had it shortened. About 3k for the conversion. Much less than adding a new sleeper to a truck.

Brian

Tom Cobb

You are right about the rules being outdated. Nobody could have projected the so called 1-ton trucks with a wt rating over 11K and carry over 5K. When the rules were written a 2 or 2 1/2 ton truck was rated at those numbers. No one would have predicted the explosion of use of pickups into the LTL market either.

The first rule should be safety and making the wt rules within the vehicle ratings...period...no flexibility. The weights and ratings are on the door sticker or glovebox of all these vehicles. A wt certificate stating the unloaded wt of the vehicle should be required and include the total wt of truck and trailer combo empty. If the operator is force to know his max cargo wt then overloading is no excuse. When he is weighed he has no defence of being over wt.

This would help get rid of illegal operators and force the overloaded operators to comply with the laws and make the roads safer. The operators would have to buy trucks rated for what they want to haul.

Calling dually's 1-ton's is not accurately describing these trucks. Dually pickups have a place in the market but they should be forced to run within the wt. limitations of what the manufacturer rates them for just like the big trucks. Big trucks have a manufacturers rating and have to stay within them so why shouldn't dually pickups.

bth9461

The problem I see is the MFG's GCWR is a number that makes no sense.
Chevy 3/4 ton 22k, 3500 23.5k, and 4500 26k. If you live by their numbers you can't really use these trucks commercially if you tow a trailer. I think if DOT went by that number Chevy would scream like a stuck pig. They don't even put that number on the door tags, so I think it is only in their product info to cover them in a warranty issue if they think they need to, and maybe to keep them out of a law suit for liability. I bet if DOT started using the GCWR, Chevy would up them real fast, to what level I don't know. Melvin must be at 40k on his plates. Thats 14k+ above the truck specs.

Tom I think my 3500 at 26k handles better than my 3/4 ton did at 22k. When I was checking into International's and FL's it was hard to get a tow rating on them, mostly all they published was GVWR and thats it. So in theory you might be correct if their GCWR was a real number, but it just does not make any sense. 26k on a Class 4 just can't be right.

Has anybody run across DOT using GCWR for enforcement, all I have ever had them check was the GVWR of the truck and trailer and add them together. I have had them do this several times. i have been across the scales at almost 26k and they did not even bat an eye at me.

Brian

TGPILOT

I agree guys, when the original pickups came out, the intent was to haul light duty stuff and a small trailer. Look at the trucks of the 30's to 60's. They were not built for much, as time went by they beefed them up and added horsepower. We, as the end users kept loading them up and pushing the envelope. Granted, today's pickups can do a lot more than the earlier models.

As mentioned, the mfgs. label the GCWR one thing and the states another. That of course, allows them an out should something ever happen. I've never been against the use of the dually having ran several myself. My thing was the safety issue, too many guys are overloading them.

The dullay is an ideal RV and general home use type truck that has grown way beyond it's intent. We use it because it's cheaper, handier, multi-purpose etc. It would be great if the mfgs. would build us the ideal truck that was already set up with a sleeper, the right HP, and weight carrying capacity.

I think were starting to see those changes, but until they start mass producing them ready to roll. We will have to deal with the cards we are dealt. In the mean time we just have to watch the weight we put on them. Just like in the commercials, they will tow a ship towards land, but they never show you one stopping a very large load. ( Razz

)

Tom

Tom Cobb

Note that the wt classes are established by the US govt. They don't list GCWR but the manufacturer says what it is and it is based on engineering data and testing. It will be included in any lawsuit, rest assured, and the DOT will likely point this out in the investigation of an accident investigation of a commercial vehicle accident.

It makes no sense to stick your neck on the chopping block because you in your own uneducated guestimation as to what is safe. Just because others do it and they think they know more than the engineers and the manufacturers don't cut it.

I have worked with engineering in the designing of aircraft., The auto industry does the same type of testing. They test to determine the breaking point and how long it took (number of cycles) to determine the maximum weight or load rating of the total vehicle and the individual components. If it breaks below the design spec they redesign it. If it exceeds the spec then it is declared to meet design spec. or they increase the design spec if all parts will meet the new design spec.

Yes, sometimes it doesn't make sense. In the short term you may get by with overloading but in the long run you won't.

See info from a website link found towards the bottom.

Truck Classification
Knowledge of truck classes and categories is not required for recreational vehicle towing, but it is very helpful when communicating with each other, service shops, and to understand regulations affecting vehicles on public roads.

There are two classifications most applicable to RV tow trucks. First, the weight classes, as defined by the US government, ranging from Class 1 to Class 8. Second, the following broader categories:

Light Duty Truck
Medium Duty Truck
Heavy Duty Truck
Weight Classes & Categories
Weight classes are defined by the US government and are used consistently throughout the industry. They are based on the truck's GVWR, or in the trucking industry on GVW plus average cargo weight.

Categories, on the other hand, are not as well defined. The same truck may be considered a heavy duty truck by one segment of the industry, and a medium duty truck by another.

Our research shows that the most often used official categories are derived from the US DOT Vehicle Inventory and Use Survey (VIUS). We indicate the VIUS truck categories in the fourth table column below. However, service shops, truckers, insurance companies, and seasoned RVers define some category boundaries differently than VIUS; therefore, in the last column we included the commonly used categories.

A good example of category disagreement are the one ton pickup trucks, some of which have a GVWR above 10,000 lbs. Based on the GVWR, these trucks are considered Class 3 and have a VIUS category of Medium-duty. However, few people would consider a one ton pickup anything but a Light Duty Truck.

Weight
Class Minimum
GVWR (lbs) Maximum
GVWR (lbs) VIUS *
Category Common
Category
Class 1 6,000 Light-duty Light Duty
Class 2 6,001 10,000 Light-duty Light Duty
Class 3 10,001 14,000 Medium-duty Light Duty
Class 4 14,001 16,000 Medium-duty Medium Duty
Class 5 16,001 19,500 Medium-duty Medium Duty
Class 6 19,501 26,000 Light-heavy Medium Duty
Class 7 26,001 33,000 Heavy-heavy Heavy Duty
Class 8 33,001 Heavy-heavy Heavy Duty

* VIUS: US DOT Vehicle Inventory and Use Survey

Examples
In the table below, we have listed common RV tow truck models and their classification. Please be aware that the table illustrates the full range of each model. Vehicle sub-model and options affect the actual category that a specific truck falls into.

Go to this link to see which trucks fall into the various classes. This is aimed at rv'ing but it applies to all towing.

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-tow-vehicles-classes.shtml

Check this for some good info as well.

http://changingears.com/rv-sec-tow-vehicle-sizing.shtml

bth9461

Melvin has his 4500 plated for 42k, Truck is gvwr 16k and trailer 22k. He lilmits himself to the 38k, though and says it is very rare that he gets that high. He says the truck does better for that weight than he does. He is 12k over the GCWR for that truck. It seems that if you want to use a 4500 you should only plate it for 26k if you go by GM's spec's. If I limit my 3500 to 30k with the new trailer then I am ONLY 6.5k over the GCWR of the truck. That makes me twice as moral as the most moral guy I know. Hell I am already 3k over the specs now.

On a serious note, I know I need to switch trucks ASAP. I was considering a used 4500/5500 (lots to choose from, and Melvin has done fine with his) but if you go by GM's GCWR's their not really any safer than my Dually if I want to plate something between 40-44k. If you noticed TC, those links had lots of info on general class and GVWR's but almost nothing on the actual values of GCWR from the MFG's. What is a good choice of truck size for that 40-44k range, the trailer is 25k?

TG what class is you FL a class 7 or 6, and does it have a actual GCWR from the MFG? Or is that a BIG 3 number to keep their lawyers happy? Do the real (FL,IH, Pete ect..) truck MFG's publish a GCWR for their trucks? IH had some towing ratings on their RXT's but I don't remember a GCWR in any of their info.

I was thinking a FL60/70/80 expeditor truck and remove the box and cut the length down. Their are a lot of those out there. Would that be a safe truck?

Looking for advice (TC,TG, or anyone else looking in) so chime in and let me know what you think, this next truck will be a stepping stone that I will need to run for about 2 years. I want to go up to 54k gross eventually, but that truck needs to be set up just right. I need a good low budget mid range truck, are the class 4/5 trucks just too lite for a 40-44k application?

Brian

Tom Cobb

Here is a little info that apparently is not real wide spread. A chev truck salesman who has sold medium duty trucks for many years told me this. I believe someone on one of the forums said he had also been told about this.

5 or 6 years back the medium duty truck manufacturers and the IRS got into some issues with GM and others over the tax laws because the med duty required payment of fed excise tax like the big trucks do now. The med duty trucks were being marketed to RV'ers etc and apparently the excise tax was an issue. There was an issue that the beds that had a tunnel with a hitch mounted in the tunnel were considered truck tractors by the IRS. So the manufacturers said they would not sell them with the tunnel beds so it was not a tractor. The flatbed was fine.

Long and short of it is that GM had made an agreement with the IRS that if the trucks were rated for under 26K and no tunnel bed then they were not classed as a truck tractor and the fed excise tax did not have to be paid. GM said OK then all 4500/5500 will be rated at 26K max.

At the time they were rated higher than they are now by a considerable amount. GM built the truck the same and and changed the data plates to comply with the IRS agreement.

I looked at the peterbuilt 330 single axle last night and the rear axle is rated at 21K but there is no GVWR or GCWR posted on the website. Freightliner didn't post the specs. That would make it a class 6 and possibily a class 7 truck.

TGPILOT

I've heard that two, don't have anything to back it up either. My truck has the tunnel and classed as a tractor-trailer combo.

Tom

bth9461

TC, that makes more sense than anything I have seen or heard. It is the BEAN counters and Tax Lawyers. I have heard that RV's based on a FL platform have had trouble with the FED Tax. I called the GM dealer yesterday and they have that GCWR on the door tags he said, in any case the 4500/5500/6500 all have maximum 26k GCWR, even though their GVWR's range from 16k-26k.

Maybe the GCWR is right on the 3/4 ton and dually, but on the Medium Duty it is a meaningless number. Maybe the light duties are set lower than need be though, to create a difference between the Medium Duties which are artificially low. Without having the engineering it would be wise to limit the light duties.

The Big Three medium duties though really do a diservice to their owners by not publishing a trailer guide. The Gm dealer did not recomend going over the 26k. This could potentially put more of the liabilty on the O/O. This is a nod and a wink sales approach to save 12%. Not the way you should do business.

FL though said that if I sat down with them on their design computer they would design the truck to pull any weight I wanted. I think all the heavy truck guys will do this for any of their Medium Duties. But I think all of them will charge the Fed Excise Tax, regardless of GVWR (even under 26k), the FL dealer mentioned that very early in the conversation.

I am not a BIG GOV't GUY, but it seems to me FMCSA should be more concernd about what equipment is used commercially than the HOS. The rules have so many loop holes in them, they seem to need some upadting to represent the equipment that is avilable today. Some real Common Sense needs to be applied here, that of course is asking too much I Know.

Brian

Tom Cobb

GM does have a trailering guide for the med. duties. I have a brochure with the data in it. The GCWR is 24k or 26K depending upon which gear ration you have. The 3500 HD is 23500. It was 22K until the 07 models.

I can't find any reference to GCWR for the FL or others. GM may have shot themselves in the foot by rating them like that but most people will haul what they want to on it anyway.

For the Dodge 4500 they don't list a GCWR but if you take the tow capacity plus the curb wt with and automatic trans it is 18450 + 7485 = 25935 so that is a GCWR of approx 26 or 27K maybe a tad more but not much. The GVWR is 16K. That is less than the GM 4500 numbers.

For Ford 450 go to this link. It is too much to figure out and translate to this post. Their conventional towing numbers make no sense. Nobody builds a hitch for tongue pulling that will carry the kind of loads they are posting.

http://www.fordvehicles.com/trucks/superduty/features/specs/

For all their hoopla about towing it is not really any better than the others.

bth9461

I guess what I ment was a real trailering guide and not that artificial number that takes care of the TAX MAN at the expense of a truck owner. They are left to either staying at 26k or less, or guessing at what the safe GCWR is. Many guys are adding the truck and trailer GVWR together and hoping the truck is safe, with the 4500's.

FL told me they could give me a safe tow rating, from their design computer. IH posted in their info tow values for the RXT, MXT, and CXT, they had some impressive numbers. A RXT Hauler with a DT570 could tow 14.75 tons plus the weight of the truck. Atleast they give you a reasonable limit to work with. I like GM but they seem to be very coy on their trucks capablities. They really have not made that truck with the comercial tower in mind. It might be good enough, but they won't tell you it is.

Oh well, I plan to jump up into a larger truck ASAP, think I am going to skip the Medium duty and find a good Class 8 tandem with close to the spec's I want and have it converted into a S/A. Will hate giving up the 4x4 though. Really thought about the 5500 4x4. It would never be safe at 54k and that's where I think I must get to eventually.

Brian

Tom Cobb

I don't like the idea of converting. If it wasn't built right from the factory I don't want it. Conversions to me have always caused problems. With the class 8 truck you are adding a lot of wt to the truck even though you remove an axle the truck is built as a class 8. I would bet the parts and frame are heavier and this adds useless wt to haul around.

Just my not so humble opinion.

bth9461

Actually many S/A are class 8's with GVWR well over 33k. The way it was explained to me, they take out the tandems and replace it with a heavier S/A maybe 22 or 23k capacity, then chop the frame down. I think many of the class 8 S/A's would be built the same as the Tandems, just shorter wheel base. Changing axles does not seem to be that big a deal. Plus I am thinking 11 LT motor size, for mileage and engine life. The whole point is to have a truck that is heavier than I need with a larger sleeper.

I am not saying it is right for everyone, just what I would like. If I can find a smoking deal on a class 7 with an 8-9 LT, I could go that way. I know I can't afford to order a new S/A with exactly what I want. Most of the used class 7 are pretty pricy.

TG, you giving yours away yet? I hardly ever see one for less than 40k, and that would be a good deal.

TGPILOT

No I haven't Brian. And yes, a lot of class 8's are cut back to a 7 without any known problems. There are a few forum out there for the Rvers that do it. I was on a few of their sites last year. Just google them.

That had been one of my thoughts when I was looking for another truck. I wanted a good aerodynamic truck with a nice comfortable walk in sleeper. Auto transmission, etc.

Still have mine, may just keep it to haul our RV around with, as it does a great job with it.

Tom

bth9461

Talk about driving a truck for free, You could pull your trailer for the next 10 years and still get a decent price out of it. I am amazed at how well they hold there value.

Brian

tomsws6

I know the post is a little old but.. So how much can a 4500 topkick pull safely? I think its rated to 19k That always confused me too. I see alot of fl60's with a sportchassis with a 300hp motor that is only rated for 26k!! Then you look at a new F450 or a topkick or kodiak and there all rated at almost the same.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws...sPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline...ives/FirstDrives/articleId=119237

Tom Cobb

It seems you are confusing GVWR with tow rating. The GCWR minus the wt of the truck ready to roll gives you the true tow rating. The medium duty trucks are really void of info on the GCWR. GM publishes a tow rating that keeps the truck below 26K. There is a post on here about the reason for it.

In my opinion I would take what Ford advertises real carefully and fully investigate it. I have found they are bordering on false advertisement much of the time. Some time back they advertised the diesel tow rating as some value and when you checked it out with their info it was actually the V-10 engine rating which was higher than the diesel but the ad led you to believe it was the diesel engine. They show picts and words that don't agree with the data.

Personally I would stay away from the Ford diesel. Others on here will tell you the same thing.

The FL60 in you link looks like a super buy. The price and low miles is a real good deal.

tomsws6

not trying to hyjack the topic or anything but what do think about the trailer?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws...sPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

Tom Cobb

IMHO it is not worth the price. That trailer needs work and has been abused. It has no ramps.

The question is this....what are you planning to do with a trailer and how much load do you plan to haul and what kind of loads?

What are you going to pull it with? That trailer weighs 15K. Most LTL loads are not that much. Based on the GVWR and the empty wt you can only load 6K on it. That is a waste of time and money.

Again....tell us what you goals are, what do you want to haul, what are you driving to do this work?

DO NOT buy equipment until you have a business plan and know the direction you want to go. You will loose from the git go if you do otherwise.

Again...read the posts on this forum...they are informative.

mhlogistics

tomsws6

Id like to thank all of you for your input. Well I havent even bought a truck yet. My plan is to go with cars around here so to make it make any sence I would need to be able to hold atleast 3 regualar sized vehicles. I was thinking something of that size cause i could pull double duty with the cars and then be able to haul all types. Im doing research on the 4500 and 5500 series GM's. Fl60 would just be too much for me at first. I would probably use the truck daily too.

mhlogistics

In my opinion, you don't want to limit yourself to just cars you need to be able to haul freight to kick your rate per mile up, Your on the right track as far as trailer style. We use a similar trailer ourselves, the only diff is the trailers we buy weigh between 8200lbs and 9200lbs and have a 21,000 lbs gvw. Both trailers have a 45' long deck by 102" wide. Over all length is 53'. We load a lot of these style trailers and they've proven to be the high revenue producers in what were are doing here. Not to mention you can get 3 small to medium size cars on these trailer if you end up in an area where there's no freight available. Wink

Here's a few pictures and prices.

This is a John Kerr Trailer, it costs around $8200.00 brand new. Weighs approx 8200 lbs

This is a Hefty it costs around $9600.00, weighs approx 9200 llbs

The guys working with us use 1 ton duallies and several of the new Dodge 4500's to pull these trailers.

Hope this information helps you.